Checking up on Google Reader showed me Mootools lighthouse ticket’s feed. I saw that someone is displeased with the mootools dev team. It has happened before that someone didn’t like the approach that the team took to community suggestion, and it actually did get a bit worse when they closed down the forum (this type of behavior has happened on the forum too) and moved everything to IRC or Google Groups.
Still, Mootools is not dead. I’ve seen everyone say that if you want to contribute mootools, make it a plugin. How is that narrow acceptance of new features? At least they’re not calling your idea stupid or worthless. They’re just saying that they have no interest in maintaining that or integrating that particular thing into the core of mootools. There is nothing wrong with a plugin.
The fact that the mooWalkthrough has gotten at least 2000 views in the last month also proves that mootools is not dead. If it were, nobody would be using it.
Maybe the community feeling isn’t up to par, at this time. I know jQuery’s community is pretty huge and they’re very open about their library. Mootoolers seem not to be so similar. Or least the main mootools developers. I sense that the majority of the community is confused on where things are headed for both parts of mootools, community and development.
I just want to say that Mootools is not dead; don’t say it is, or it might happen.
Here are the things I saw in the ticket on mootools’ lighthouse.
Daniel ******** July 31st, 2008 @ 02:40 AM
* → Title changed from “Inherited Private Variables In Moo?” to “Mootools are dead”
I feel, you guys are blind (or sleeping). You are not interested in any new concept, new features, nor bug fixing. I understand, this project didn’t brought money for you, but it’s only yours fault. No sane person would kill forum and community at all. Many thanx for you work, but it’s obvious, that moo developement, is completely dead now.
Polite person would write to blog something about, e.g. “sorry guys, but we have no time (money) to continue.”
Valerio was all the time rude and displeasing, so I’m not surprised, I’m just sad.
And
Daniel ******** July 31st, 2008 @ 03:49 AM
* → Tag changed from “enhancement wontfix” to “blocker critical defect wontfix”
… only what moo guys are doing during last year, is:
* trashing suggestions
* invaliding request
* ignoring fixes
* ridiculing new ideasThat’s sad true.
I don’t know what else to think about the current state of development or the Mootooler Community. At least the Javascript is awesome.
What would you say about this now? I agree with the subtext suggested by the authors of your excerpted posts. There has been an undercurrent in the MooTools-o-sphere for more than a year now: that developers’ insolence leaves the community with much to be desired.
The framework itself is an enigma. How else could you classify something proven to be so powerful, attractive, and yet mesmerizing to those who gaze upon it?
The undercurrent continues to flow, and MooTools momentum has reached a standstill. The various community services (lighthouse, github, google groups, mootools docs, mootools forums, blog, mootorial) have been disbanded or relocated into a dysfunctional, confusing, quagmire. Followers couldn’t help but scratch their collective heads, and newcomers aren’t given the indicators they might need to adopt.
Surely by now, most of the people who have developed a project with MooTools (such as I) have asked themselves, “How much longer do I have to keep asking myself ‘Is MooTools the solution on which I should standardize’?”
And I should add, my play with interrogative in the language of that statement is intentional. I have been reluctant to let MooTools go, though every inch of my being says it has little hope.
I would agree to say that the Centralized Community we wanted is dead. A few bloggers blog about Mootools, there’s an Ajaxian post about it every now and then, but there is just about nothing coming from the core Mootooler team.
I agree with your question. I absolutely agree. I feel that the lack of open acknowledgment of the community is driving me away. I have the feeling that branching out from Mootools is the only realistic option. Just yesterday on David Walsh’s blog, I read in the comments that people were complaining that David told his readers that it’s “okay” to use jQuery with Mootools. I think at this point, Mootools is becoming a library for those recluse programmers rather than the dream solution library.
Again; the Centralized Community we wanted is dead, the library isn’t dead exactly, but the developers are letting it get away from them.
[...] of the MooTools” wherein he responds to a comment left on an earlier post he made (MooTools is not dead) and ponders the state of the library: I want to know what people think of the State of the [...]
I don’t agree with your statement that MooTools is “becoming a library for those recluse programmers rather than the dream solution library.”
I don’t see how the community is what would or wouldn’t make MooTools a “dream solution.” The tools work, right? You’re absolutely correct that MooTools doesn’t promote its community like jQuery but I’d prefer they spent their time writing great code and let people pick up on it.
If a developer needs help or would like to contribute to MooTools, they can visit the #mootools IRC or post on Google Groups. What more would you propose?
I agree the tools work. But image matters too. Wouldn’t you pick a library that has strong code and also a strong appearance on the web? I say recluse programmers because I personally feel all alone when working with Mootools. Although I really haven’t touched upon anything library because I’m busy and much more familiar with Mootools, I feel that I’m much farther away from another Mootooler than. Because the core team seems unfriendly, not that they are at all, I’ve talked to most of them in the IRC room, the image that is given off to potential users isn’t very positive.
As a person who wrote that ticket I had to say that many of my other tickets were accepted. Actually I had created over 10% of all tickets in LHA. I also suggested a lot of fixes related to leaking, styles etc. Just because I am using Mootools for quite big legacy projects, Mootools has to live :-) Also, its seems Valerio finally rose from the dead.
Despite using the framework for approaching two years now, I am one of those beginner/novice Moo users that the core developers seem to wish would just go away.
From my perspective, I love the library, but am increasingly aware that it’s a framework and community that isn’t willing to accommodate me (despite the many wonderful resources and individuals who continue to promote it in a positive, friendly way).
The upgrade from v1.1 to v1.2 disillusioned an awful lot of novice users, and the decision to shut down the forum (though it has been reinstated again now, albeit in a view-only state) showed everything you needed to know about the core developer’s disdain for the wider community – it serves itself and no-one else.
Ultimately, this can only lead to diminished interest and smaller uptake of the community in favour of jQuery. I think you are right to suggest Ryan when you say that it could become “a library for those recluse programmers”, but of course that’s not to say it’s no good one or it can’t be that “dream solution library” that many (myself included) feel it is/will be.
I feel the same way as you do. I tried to write the mooWalkthrough in order to help novices but nothing really could prepare anyone for the jump from 1.11 to 1.2. I thought it was ready near build 900 but I think it was release as build 1100 or so. I mention that because I wrote the second mW for the SVN version of Mootools 1.2, so I was ahead for a while but quickly fell out of the loop.
I think Mootools is my dream library, although the library to use is decided on the situation. I said it is becoming “a library for recluse programmers” because, out of everyone from uses Mootools, David and probably six other people actually blog about it at all. I don’t think any of the core developers have an active blog that promotes mootools or really anything else. I know they’re busy. Don’t the jQuery developers blog about things they do with it though? Focusing on the library and code is great but focusing on the people you’re giving it to is nearly as important. It seems like we’re (us mootoolers) are becoming a fragmented bunch and we need to come back together.
I agree with either Ryan and the “Daniel” mentioned in the post.
There is a big difference from Mootools and others frameworks. If you want to learn Mootools, you have to do it by yourself: download it and learn it, and stop.
This approach is merely bad, although Mootools is an open source project. But man, this is what Mootools developers want. I have read a lot of responses posted by them that really, made me shocked. So, if you like the latter, use it, otherwise, choose an other project of course.
[...] dazu überreden konnte jQuery einzusetzen, nachdem Mootools in den letzten Monaten etwas schwächelt, primär ist der Grund aber das ich jQuery momentan eine blühendere Zukunft voraussage und [...]
reread my post; sorry, I get wordy with my writing sometimes.
Something interesting to add is that there are message threads all over the net, even in the now long-defunct forum, that question the viability of MooTools in the future. And the topic is generally the same (e.g. WTF up with community, why developers so detached and unforgiving)? This one doesn’t exactly help MooTools case. Newbies will get the picture.
I would venture to say that the ‘reclusive developer’ might better be classified as an enthusiast. They might master the methods and techniques of the library, but without an integrated community more in tune with growth and public relations, they aren’t likely to have what they need to surpass a personal level of interest.